Got questions???


The process of leaving our Bethelized Church took  a heartbreaking 5 months or so…  During that time I had many, many questions…  & I  know that you do too…( going by the search terms that are being placed)   The truth of what was happening slowly unravelled before the eyes as I went to God, searched his word & ask him to show me HIS TRUTH…  which he  faithfully did..

We know, in the UK  for sure that many people who have questions may also have a lot of fear (we did!)  if being truly honest about it… There was a distinct feeling from the leadership that even to visit a site such as this was dishonourable…    which is one of the reasons why this blog is here…  because we know that a leadership that has bought into the River, will be unlikely to be able to have an honest & proper discussion with you about these things.-    Chances are if you have tried to have a conversation on any level with leaders – you may have not been received well…   Again & again, we are hearing that  this is the experience of many who have lovingly & gently in all Godliness & sincerity tried to discuss many of the issues that are on this blog.

This is a safe place to ask any question you want..  we are free to discuss these things here…  you can always adopt a username  if you prefer  anonymity. However, I would say that your question may be helpful to others who would ask the very same thing…  So please do post if you feel able.

If you are in the UK – please, please do get in touch.  If you prefer to private message   that is absolutely  fine too:  rooftopsandrafters2013@hotmail.com

there are are an increasing amount of questions & answers being posted on this thread – so please do scroll down & take a look as it may be your question has been previously asked & answered already

looking forward to hearing from you…… Ask Away!!

lots of love –  Zazzy

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90 thoughts on “Got questions???

  1. Our church has been bethelized over a period of about 5 years and I have been a defender if it all up until now after reading the first 2 chapters of this book by Kris Valloton: Fashioned to Reign, my husband has had suspicions about bethel for a while but I’m really disturbed that the head of the shool Kris Vallaton had this opinion of Adam and Eve and it gas led me to question everything bethel do! Anyway I would like your opinion on the theology of the chapter 2 On Adam and eve and the creation not to use your opinion in anyway as rebuttal to others but for my own understanding of the creation story as
    I am very disturbed confused and unsettled about the story as Kris represents it in this book and I feel it doesn’t represent God how I thought I knew Him and (I don’t believe it’s scriptural without being a Pharisee). I was asked to read it by someone in leadership in my church whom I love and admire very much. I have spoken to them about it and they have no problem with it at all.
    The book subject I have no problem with I am all for empowering women in church and am part of church that empowers women greatly, however the issue I have is contained within chapter 2 of the book and the theology of creation and Adam and eve, a couple of points that book is trying to make is that I disagree with or are unsure about are:
    The original Adam was an intersexed being both male and female .
    The work Adam and Man are interchangeable throughout the old entire testament.
    God created man after the God Kind.
    Chapter 1 of genesis carries on to chapter 2 and that eve was created after God had rested as he couldn’t find a suitable helper.
    God looked at the Animals first to see if the animals were a suitable helper first before eve was created.
    You May be wondering why I have issues with this as it is a book written by a man but what concerns me is that a person may read this a say well Adam was originally created both male and female as an intersexed being so why can’t I be whatever I want to choose to be, and I do not want my children being taught that Adam originally had both male and female sex organs. For me it has ruined a beautiful creation story and I don’t think it is right! But I may be wrong too! I’m am not a scholar of the bible.
    My husband and I are concerned about how our church has been bethelized and feel we may have to do something about this!

    • You are right to be concerned.. sadly on this blog we see time & time again that the teaching of Bethel is defended by a local church leadership that have bought into the whole thing… I haven’t read Kris book. But I’m concerned about the intersex thing. Where does that come from. ? Not scripture… & it’s not even logical if Adam was created intersex then so would eve have been.. I think this is trying to repackage scripture to make it pallatable with our new world view which says it’s ok to identify with which ever sexual expression you like… I think also if you were to ‘re read this book knowing what we know that Bethel ultimately teaches that we can be little Gods.. we are as royalty within the kingdom. That man has the power to forgive sin. Because Jesus did that & when he was on the earth he operated as man not God.. Jesus didn’t receive his anointing to be God until his baptism. On & on & on. They teach these things.. if you were to re-read the book in the light of knowing this I think it would make it clearer to you just what the problem is here…

      There is lots of info on this site so hope that helps…

      Also off topic but I would like to clarify… Not much of a revival in Reading UK as we are being led to believe…

      • My guess is before Eve was taken out of Adam, it could be construed that they were asexual. But to then physically describe that, could lead to gender confusion.
        Reading Revival is still going strong, as in they are converting people and still getting overwhelmed by the fact they cannot disciple. Plus getting upset when the integrity of the system is questioned.

      • Thanks for your reply, Yes this is exactly what he is trying to say, he took the women out of the man when he created eve, his theory is flawed anyway according to scripture I think, but what concerns me is people believe this and defend this saying the Bible says “He created him male and female, he created them” and that chapter 2 of genesis is a continuation of chapter 1 so there fore eve is created after he rested, if he can’t get the creation story right are any if his teaching credible? Our church has also started moral revolution one if his other books and program for youth this concerns me! But one thing is bethel and Kris valloton Are not for homosexuality or transgender agendas so I find this very confusing too?

      • But what they say, what they think + what they covertly teach are all different.. they know that blogs like mine pick th apart.. but in their hearts there is the truth of what they really believe.. bottom line. Are they preaching the gospel .. do they believe people are sinful & need to repent before a crucified saviour who is the only way… Do they talk of Jesus at all ??

      • Yes I agree they seem to contradict one another! If I bring this up I feel I may be questioned as to why this is such a problem as they believe the book is doing so much good empowering women etc so what does it matter if it doesn’t line up etc I’ll be seen as a pharisee because I’m correcting them on scripture and he’s doing good by empowering women? All-though I’m not feeling empowered by the book personally myself😜🙃 it’s all very confusing!

      • I think the first thing you have to do is get clear in yourself what you want to say & stick to it.. remember the bible is our final authority. How far would you personally compromise to keep a leader ” happy with you”. This is a process we must go through even though challenging + difficult.. you could choose to leave it, wait & see. It’s all about where your conviction + heart is.. Be blessed x

      • Hi zazzy thanks for your response, Yes these are some things I have stumbled upon since digging deeper into the bethel stuff so I’m going to go back through the Bible to figure out what our core beliefs are for me and hubby, and how scripture lines up with this if anything it has encouraged me to get back to the word so that’s good! I’m afraid though if I bring all this up I may be seen a Pharisee or have a religious spirit😳

      • Yes our experience is that this is levelled at anyone who dares challenge or question.. something happens to church leaders when they align with this stuff. They get an arrogance + boldness not seen before they adopt a stance of who are you to question me. We’ve seen it time and again. Sorry to say.. Yes get stuck in the word..

        Be blessed x

  2. What does anyone make of the revival in Reading in UK that is supposed to spreading across UK?

    1000s being converted by saying a prayer?

    Not sure what to make of it as I see the leader has been sharing the platform with Charasmatic Catholics which is aleays worrying

    • It is nothing like Acts 2 where God drew men Peter preached and 3000 were taught. The “script” these guys are using is cold calling, putting people in fear of Hell. Then having to follow up rather than God adding. They are not releasing figures apart from 2000 apparently ” saved ” less than 5% being added or discipled. I refuted this with them on FB and warned that if its ” dead works ” they will get burnt out. Like most believers they are waiting to get ship wrecked.

    • I think we have to ask some questions here… The first being is this genuine or just Media hype..

      Knowing how this crowd operates remember they will consider that if a person on the street merely accepts a blessing, prayer, healing or fills out a contact card.. these churches/leaders consider that an encounter- an acceptance of Christ.. when we know that true salvation comes from a heart of repentance..

      Additionally, are the churches in Reading busting at the seams.. remember that revival is considered when 10%of the available population are participating. Reading has a population of 350,000 people approx. So are the churches gathering in 35, 000. People???? That’s 10 big churches with 3,000 in each about… Question that….!

      Next question… Is revival even a biblical concept??? When we see that it teaches us that the end times will produce a great falling away.. the word “revival” is a modern construct..

      Yes we see in Acts 3,000 coming to be baptised in the one day but that was all about a response to a conviction of the heart through repentance. Revival – as we observe in modern times is about the church actively enlarging its tent by various means & not necessarily & mostly not through the sharing of the Gospel of a crucified saviour that demands a heart response.. See the difference?

      Yes questions need to be asked, this NAR crowd now believe in unity with the Catholic church of Rome &have ended the “protest” of Protestantism. Dangerous times when I see fro m my own research the Vatican is the very hub of evil &oppression for centuries…

      Plenty to discuss here.

      • Thanks for comments.

        I have read the script that is used and I understand it originally came from. Rodney Howard Brown!

        The script is very unsound Biblicaly. No mention of repentance and the resurrection is not mentioned which is a vital part of the Gospel.

        So what Gospel are these 1000s believing?

        There is no mention of confessing with the mouth Jesus as Lord (Romans 10 10)

        Will wait and see. If it’s of God it will grow but if of man it will fail

        When evangelicals go cap in hand with the Catholics we need to raise some questions or it undermines the many who were martyred by the Catholic church. Their evil doctrine has not changed. I remember many years ago as a boy my father showing me the Martyrs memorial in Oxford where 3 were burnt at the stake because they wouldn’t bow to Rome.

        I read recently in the Catholic Charismatic magazine they referred to the Holy Spirit as the husband of Mary! What blasphemy! Yet these are the people who the Reading folk go cap in hand to!

        Very worrying!

      • Ok so what’s the test of success or not? See to me, a revival as promoted by these people would indicate people from all over the town being impacted… People who are non churched Should be discussing it – it should be a thing out there in the world where a stroll down the main street if the town cerntre there is quick evidence to be had that this is a big thing, conversations overheard.. etc… So is this the case in Reading… I don’t think so..

        Are people flocking to the originating church or are the old guard members slowly leaving…

        These questions & this analysis needs to happen because that’s more than the truth of an article or two in the Christian press created by a probable egotistical leader..

        Bethel & the NAR. Are increasingly plunging into all things mystical & adopting some very Catholic ideas.. such as the artefacts of revival & objects being able to carry transferable anointings..

        This leader in Reading, I wonder if he has any catholiscm in his background too, I suspect so..

      • Zassy, I would suggest that you read Pastor Yinka Oyekans personal testimony. It gives a lot of insight and to me the content of this testimony clearly shows that he is a false prophet and the whole so called revival in Reading is a complete fake.

      • I’m very interested in reading that

        Please could you post the link to that as I think it’s very important that everyone who visits this site has access to that.. many thanks

      • If you enter Yinka Oyekan personal statement in google it will show. When you read it you will understand how fraudulent this all is. His claims are absolutely rediculous.

    • I think I put a logical, and Biblical argument to these guys, I may have offended them so I apologised if my argument was ” a bit strong “. It was nice as they also apologised for some of their comments. ( we do not war against flesh and blood ). I found they simply were not going to accept that ” The Turning ” wasn’t even logical. The temptation for me is to then get into striving against this ” revival” as I know the consequences for both those that have been ” converted ” ( hardened hearts ) and if its dead works it can cause burn out. Having voiced my concerns on the same social media platform they used to promote it, I will now leave it

      • The sad thing is that a lot if folks are blind to the truth.

        They say many have accepted Jesus. Which one? The Bible talks about believing. It talks about confessing with our mouths Jesus as Lord. Totally different to saying I accept Jesus. The New and Mormons accept Jesus.

        What about believing in you heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead?

        Are these people on resurrection ground or is Jesus just their friend.

        The JWs in the town I live have a congregation of over 600 more than all the churchs put together but what Gospel do they belive?

        What Gospel are these folk believing when they read the card?

        One that doesn’t talk about repentance, confessing Jesus as Lord and no mention of the resurrection.

        There fore it’s no gospel at all

        No wonder so many are accepting it!

      • I live in Reading and know some of the people and Churches involved in this. I know some that are very sincere, I dont doubt that they know Jesus or that they have seen miracles. So my understanding is one of admix. Having been involved in a lot of outreach, I have made similar mistakes and been immature in following God. I do believe the outreach is a type of counterfeit, the presentation has been used in the USA and Evangelical Church. It produces immaturity, which is the greater problem, ( along with 1900 people that are wondering what God they are following ) Its called taking out fire insurance, ( rather than Good News )

  3. is COG International also also involved?…..Crazy Bill of Redding Bethel has drafted the articles being Complicit by joining the Empoweered 21 movement!…I see the AOG is Chair but is COG International also complicit? http://empowered21.com/about/leadership/
    I have asked the COG if they are officially partnering also with no response….
    There goal is to work with Cindy Jacobs the General of the NAR movement, Crazy Bill Johnson, Int’l Church of the Foursquare Gospel & Hilsong along with soooo many others in the & Mountains group …There goal is to start a “NEW or 2nd PENTECOST” ….The organization’s vision statement, according it’s website, is “that every person on earth would have an authentic encounter with Jesus Christ through the power and presence of the Holy Spirit by Pentecost 2033.”…..http://oruoracle.com/features/empowered21-answers-to-the-big-questions/

    • Almost certainly… It may not be official. But remember this crowd be live in transferable anointings partnering & alignment.. in other words.. any one can line up with anyone.. & that would be ok

  4. Dear Jazzy…I was in a meeting last year here in Telford, England where Roberts Liarden comes once a year. He is a third or fourth generation Pentecostal preacher, from the States a well known and respected speaker and author. He has written a series of books called “God’s Generals” . He had through the years made a collection of revival memorabilia and had recently sold that collection to Bill Johnson for $1M…he told us that in that collection was the wedding dress of Kathryn Kulmann and that Bill Johnson was in the process of building his own revival museum for a cost of $3M…I wonder at what stage memorabilia become relics, as in the transfer of power and anointing as evidenced by the bizarre grave sucking nonsense? Have you had any updates on what antics they are up to now in this realm? I have noticed of late that BJ is now entered into the “Temple Merchandizer” ministry and is selling his wares on Face Book now. I have a couple of friends caught up in the deception and still receive their feeds it does keep me abreast of the way that this contaminating move has invaded the charismatic churches in the UK and it is alarming thank you for sounding the alarm I do pass on your web site details to the unsuspecting hook line and sinker brigade lacking discernment or discerning of spirits “pied piper” followers oblivious to the danger and deep deception they are being deluded by.

    • Hi David.. you raise an important point about when these things becoming relics… & my answer to that is that the Bethellites are already there.. they belive in transferable anointings & for sure the primary purpose of this museum house of generals is for people to visit specifically to SOAK in whatever spirit is present there it’sthe exact same mind set that leads them to seek out the graves of these dead Christians, & lay prostrate on them in order to get the mantle/ anointing of whatever that person had…

      Biblical.??? Nope not at all.. in short this collection of artefacts is beleived to hold great supernatural/ spiritual power & these people want it…

      & if they can merchandise/ corporate brand/ charge a fee around these things then that’s extra money in the tin to keep the whole thing going..

      Thanks for sharing the blog.. people do indeed need to know..

  5. Hi Zazzy
    Thank you so much for this site. I go to a CofE church which has always been on the charismatic side but has become much more “Bethelized” of late. We just had a weekend of talks by Pete Carter from Eastgate Church in Gravesend, and were told about miracles and gold dust. Some people actually saw the glitter, though I didn’t. I am feeling really disturbed as I don’t want to leave my church, as God has done some really powerful things in my life through people there, but I can’t go along with this stuff. I’m going to a cell group meeting tonight so hope to discuss it with some of my friends there, but I’m really disturbed. I don’t know of anyone else, apart from my husband, who feels the same way as me. Do you know anything of Eastgate Church?
    Thank you,
    Marisa

    • Hi Marisa thanks for posting. Yes I think you’re right to be questioning. the next thing to do in this journey is to seek the scriptures first & foremost in discerning how you feel. .. of course this blog & others are great at setting it all out as a platform of research.. but the word is our final authority over all..

      My guess would be that after tonight’s meeting you’ll come home with even more questions & unsettled feelings. Experience tells us time & again that when individuals begin to challenge what’s going on around them in churches they have been long-term members of it doesn’t go well… I have to be honest with you & say that in all probability – addressing this with anyone in leadership will produce a defensive wall of anger… No matter how gentle & loving you put it across. So…. much prayer & standing on & in the word is very necessary.

      I know how very difficult this is I left my church after 20+ years. After much heartbreak & painful separation.. it comes down to can I continue to participate in all of this knowing that at the core of leadership – control – domination & hypocrisy abound.. which of course is UNGodly. Whilst all the time there was wild proclamations about how we were experiencing heaven come down to earth through all the ( supposed) miracles.

      I have no specific knowledge of your church. But if they are getting into Bethel s. teaching you’ll be hearing much about miracles signs & wonders & less & less about the Gospel/ person of Jesus..

      Be blessed & please let us know how it goes… Praying for you

      Zazzy

    • What I don’t understand is if these folknsaw glitter why didn’t they catch it and take it to a good buyer and get it very tired.

      But they never do

      Odd????

  6. Hi Tammy, the Holy Spirit is our teacher and comforter and He is certainly prompting you to question all this mystical stuff that doesn’t line up with the Word of God. If these Bethel people’s culture of honour was true to what it espouses then it would work both ways and the leaders would honour the church attenders that aren’t in leadership. Jesus Christ is our Shepherd and as the days grow spiritually darker we are to cling to Him all the more.

  7. Tammy you are not being foolish this is your discernment kicking in – its a good thing. I’m not up to speed either on the specific teachings of Danny either because I’ve rejected all that comes out of Bethel a long time ago. Here the thing tho, are these teachings consistently referring to Jesus are they rooted in the sense of his sacrifice because we are sinners in need of grace.? Or is the overriding message all about “us” & how royal/ priviledged we are. & what we can achieve. Remember, we are nothing… Except for God’s grace… Is that the angle being promoted.? & as for miracles/ healings etc. I’ve blogged extensively on the subject. So to recap on that: signs &wonders don’t really mean that much it is the transformation of the mind/ heart that’s more important.. Paul said didn’t he. Be transformed, by the renewal of your mind. . This means line up with godly/ biblical principles. Not pursuing things that are rooted in the new age or chasing after miracles that do nothing to convict/ challenge & ultimately restore oneself from the effect of sin.

    & it s Godly to test & weigh things so if your in an environment or relationship or system of church that directly or indirectly prevents people from doing that. It’s a huge red flag.

    Be so blessed
    Z

  8. Zazzy, I feel like I am way behind on this, but I am so relieved to hear that I am not the only one feeling uncomfortable with the teachings of Danny Silk. I couldn’t figure out why? Anymore insight is greatly appreciated. I have a wonderful Christian friend that seems to be listening to more and more of Bethel teaching. And, I fear that others are agreeing with her. I feel quite alone. She always is so wise. I feel foolish. I don’t want to cause division. And, I am unsure why Danny makes me so nervous? I haven’t looked into this very much. But, it seems so many wise people just love the Bethel Church. I feel maybe I am not discerning correctly? I completely believe in wonderful miracles, but… Please help!!! Tammy

    • Tammy you are not being foolish this is your discernment kicking in – its a good thing. I’m not up to speed either on the specific teachings of Danny either because I’ve rejected all that comes out of Bethel a long time ago. Here the thing tho, are these teachings consistently referring to Jesus are they rooted in the sense of his sacrifice because we are sinners in need of grace.? Or is the overriding message all about “us” & how royal/ priviledged we are. & what we can achieve. Remember, we are nothing… Except for God’s grace… Is that the angle being promoted.? & as for miracles/ healings etc. I’ve blogged extensively on the subject. So to recap on that: signs &wonders don’t really mean that much it is the transformation of the mind/ heart that’s more important.. Paul said didn’t he. Be transformed, by the renewal of your mind. . This means line up with godly/ biblical principles. Not pursuing things that are rooted in the new age or chasing after miracles that do nothing to convict/ challenge & ultimately restore oneself from the effect of sin.

      & it s Godly to test & weigh things so if your in an environment or relationship or system of church that directly or indirectly prevents people from doing that. It’s a huge red flag.

      Be so blessed
      Z

      • Thanks Zazzy, I can’t quite put my finger on it, but I would say it is a subtle shift from Jesus to having us honor each other above all else. Even when someone transgressed against a person in great sin, we should just keep them in an authority position and even though we disagree we shouldn’t upset that person. They think what they think, and we can make our own choices, even if it isn’t Biblical. It is about us being powerful, being in control. It is painted with some Scripture so it seems tidy, but it just makes me nervous. It seems to me that we are more in control than Jesus. And, also that we should ignore repeated sin in another believer so that we can continue a good relationship with them. Which is definitely not Scriptural. Jesus is in control not us. And, we are to lovingly speak into another believers life if they are straying into dangerous territory. It seems this is setting us up to buy whatever Bethel sells and not speak out against them. Just keep your love on even on your way to hell. Which really isn’t true love at all.

      • Thats about the size of it. Although in my situation the ability to speak into someone’s life if they were in danger of error of any kind only went downwards. Ie senior leaders could & did hold everyone they were responsible for a good “telling of how it is or should be” but boy if the tables were turned and an ordinary bod even asked about anything that a leader said or did both public or personal suddenly the accusation of being negatively unrelational or anti unity would rear up. The senior leader was the absolute worst.. completely lacking in any sort of meaningful accountability… Psychopathic behaviour is what this particular group of Christians are under..

  9. Very amused by this blog, Ive been watching and warning against rejecting the truth, now it seems a strong delusion is upon many. It seems that years of Charismatic attendance and the resulting failure to appropriate promises from God has led many to receive lies and “deceptive miracles”. The good thing is that this behaviour is foretold, foolish virgins and goat followers. Tragic for new believers, but those with 20 yrs behind them should have wised up.

  10. Do you believe Jesus can heal people today as He did when he walked the earth? Do you also believe God can speak through people? Do you believe in the gifts of speaking in tongues? I have been to a church that moves powerfully in the Holy Spirit so I am a confused by some of the things I have read. Could you tell me what you believe? I encounter a spirit tonight at a meeting that I have felt before and do not feel right about it. Thank you for your time

    • Hi Kathi, its good to lhear from you..

      yes we do believe Jesus can, does & will heal people today.

      in terms of God speaking through people, here we have to be careful…. the term used for this is prophecy or being prophetic… yes certainly God uses some people to be prophetic.

      but…. the qualifier for both of these is the absolute final authority of the word of God..

      the Holy Spirit will:
      a) never glorify himself – only ever Jesus & promote the finished work of the cross
      b) always submit to the word of God himself… so if we see something going on which is contradictory or confusing to that which the bible teaches… its not the Holy Spirit at work
      c) is not here to make individuals “feel good” or have an “experience” he is all about the edification – or the building up of the body.. to prepare the bride of Christ…

      the prophetic is a slightly different topic which I have blogged about at length on this site… please do enter some search terms & you will find my postings

      but for now I would just recommend that our thinking about the prophetic needs to change … its likely that if you have been around this movement for any time you will have experienced plenty of personal prophesy…. remember that the Holy spirit will endorse Jesus above everything.. so the first question to ask is: does this prophetic word centre on ME or on him…? secondly, is it line with the word of God? & 3rdly – dangerously, is this a (subtle) means & method to control/influence my life & decisions by leaders or a system that requires complete compliance – (oftentimes so that we part with money….)

      be blessed

      Z

  11. Thank you for this blog! I have attended a charismatic church for almost a decade. My children have grown up there. I admit as the years have progressed so have my fears that something was wrong with me. I couldn’t seem to experience what those around me did be it the drunken laughter or being slain in the spirit (i learned rightly or wrongly to just lay down when pastor or others put their hands on me or they would just push me). I have had questions off and on over the years never fully satisfied. Most recently, we have had Todd Bentley in for “revival” services that everyone seems so gung-ho for except my husband and I. We even got one of his books hoping for insight and the more we read, the darker we felt. I finally decided to do online research, never expecting to find the answers I have. This church has been like family-family that I have not always understood, but, nevertheless, the ones who watched me grow from an abandoned wife and mother to a respected preschool teacher to remarry a wonderful Godly man and begin carving plans for a youth outreach on our property. All that long spiel to say, I know my pastor is in so deep he will turn a deaf ear. He alienated a good portion of his own family a few years ago over this (i never fully realized this was the disagreement till now). I know my job is to pray, but also to break away, not only for my husband and I but for my impressionable kids.But how does one make a clean break in a spirit of love?

    • Mari, bless you…

      you are asking how does one break away in a spirit of love..

      my suggestion would be to write a letter or have a meeting with your senior leaders & simply state what you feel God is saying to you- based on your own research of the scriptures….. the important thing is not to blame (shift) or accuse… come at it from a thankful heart but also state your position (biblically) why you can no longer participate… its quite likely this will trigger an intense reaction of defensiveness.. don’t be drawn in… stick to the point..
      very important to ground yourself in the word… before you go in there.
      also, I’ll pull no punches here – when I did this- these senior leaders, steeped in a culture of honour – were extremely defensive, they character assassinated, threatened & declared themselves beyond the possibility of being deceived…..the accusation against us was one of blame in causing disunity.. I would say to any from my ex church to just walk away.. with no conversation, explanation – nothing. & this may be an option for you..

      standing with you my friend… x

  12. Just thought I would let you guys know about a really good site called gotquestions.org. I am not in anyway linked to this site but want to big it up as I have personally found this site very helpful over the last few years.
    This site gives answers to all sorts of questions from a biblical perspective using the bible as it’s source of knowledge.

    There are a fair few questions on there concerning Todd Bentley & Fresh fire, Latter rain, little Gods, Dominion teaching which is why I posted it on R&R as it may be useful to you guys.
    Also may be helpful to know that they now have a free,Got Questions, app for tablets (Android and iPad)

    • Hi Vanessa – great question:

      first off, for those not familiar with the Wakey Wakey thing – here it is in Mrs BJ’s own words:

      the question posed by all of this is: does the Christian have the power & permission to wake up & thus command Angels – messengers of God? is that scriptural ?

      the danger is of course, that Angels are sought out & worshipped as spiritual beings… & this is totally against what the bible teaches… so in effect we have to remember that satan presents himself as an ANGEL OF LIGHT.. & no wonder as he is a fallen angel thrown out of heaven, thus its not difficult for him to deceive & beguile people into believing himself as the real deal but actually being a deceiving imposter…

      are the bethellites intent on waking up a Kundalini spirit – nope not by design, but when spiritual beings are invoked through practices that are not biblically endorsed, all sorts of evil spirits including kundalini are going to get unleashed.. the problem is that without proper Godly discernment people cannot tell the difference & that is the really concerning issue & what I believe is happening here right across this movement.

      Galatians 1 v 8 says: but though we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which you have received, let him be accursed

      this is the test – are these “angels” – “these supposed” messengers of God bringing the message of Christ Crucified – victorious over sin & death – which is the Gospel or something different? is there any mention of this in the encounters these bethellites describe? I think not…

  13. Question on being an Oracle of God?

    …Has this practice been used in the UK?…

    There is this in Arizona that completely and totally taken over The Church we were members of….. The guy is never wrong , argumentative and oh yeah is a self proclaimed, prophet and Apostle also….. http://www.oracle-ministries.org/…..I have heard of the God Complex theory, I wander if this just proves the facts of that!!!

      • Im back with some info:

        there seems to be a highly developed prophetic “movement” in & around Arizona completely rooted in & from CfTN.. which is moving in this “Oracle” of God – domnionistic manner.

        please take a look at this website:

        http://www.zedekiahlist.com/billhamon-rapture.html

        from what I can make out Bill Hamon operates as mentor to the people heading up this “oracle ing” now we know that Bill Hamon is pure WOF & so we see yet again an interconnected ness between the big names… it may yet be & I suspect it is that we are witnessing in real time a mutation of “the river” movement..

        please please do your own research on this & get back to us with your thoughts & comments..

        I think you have begun to uncover something here which needs exposing…. well done & thank you Denny..

      • One thing is sure…. everyone in this Group or Circle of Friends have excommunicated my wife and I , This is actuallt a good thing for our Health, ….

        Their Supernatural School of Ministry is designed completly around Bill johnsons Theology. He is their Head Professor….-http://www.experiencecftn.com/-. They are presently in a Tent Revival with XP Ministries, “The Big Tent Event”…..where Jim Wiess boasts he will Prophesy to people who show up to his Booth there on a “First Come first Serve basis”.

        Jim Wies, a disciple of Jonathan Welton with His Raptureless crowd, has opened his “Oracle of God Training” in The Maricopa Branch of CFTN. His attitude and style when dealing with anyone who does not agree with him is just pure mean spirited, no matter how you cut it. Anyone who challenges him in a conversation, he belittles and berates so harshly most just block him, or follow him to the 7 mountains of course, just try to hold a conversation on Facebook CFTN Maricopa and you will see what I mean. In the past I have had conversations with Mormans, whom I disagree with and never have I been treated as harshly as these Kingdom Now guys. If the Church would just “Reason Together” a lot of healing would occur…..We presently attend a Church that teaches the Bible and not words from the books they have written. Just Remember this….If it were not for the “Kingdom Now” Guys who would be left when the True Church Leaves this world……..”Winners and Losers”… Thank you for alowing me to Reason Together with you….. I feel like I am one of the Winners.”

      • Denny, you are indeed a winner – that is if you are trusting in the Risen lord Jesus for your salvation from eternal “lostness” – separate from God the father… trusting in the sacrifice of Jesus – slain for us to be whole- made clean enough to be presentable before his throne of grace.. & trusting in his written word for guidance & direction – step by step of your life.. this is the winning side…

        so sad that you have been “rejected” by those you have loved & who have loved you over the years… I find myself in the exact same place & it is painful but we must stand strong together for truth.. I have found that in praying for their eyes to be opened, some but by no means all, have also come out from under this “magic spell” & relationship has been restored… I know that – however difficult, we must ready ourselves for whenever these precious ones come to us (& they will & do.) with love – forgiveness & of course an inside out knowledge of their trauma… My prayer is that the lord will do this with you.

        in recent days – I have head stories that completely correspond with the harshness of disagreement & its resultant outworkings as you describe.. although painful, we need to be able to see with compassion that what is going on here is the spirit of domninionism – fully operational… full blown… people are being run by the demonic & they do not realise – this is the level of deception.

    • yes… a “seer” is quite literally one who sees in the spiritual realm… in the river movement the terms seer & prophet are interchangeable for the most part however, to be termed as or considered a “seer” is probably viewed as being more accurate or gifted in “the prophetic” than ordinary “prophets”… the problem is of course that the bible talks about 2 distinct spiritual kingdoms one of darkness & one of light… the river movement teaches that the spiritual realm is all the same & operating in it is the same gifting whether you be a fortune teller psychic medium – operative in the occult or “one who hears from God” this of course is completely off the wall teaching … we would do well to review the story of simon the sorcerer in Acts 9 I think it is- who thought he could buy spiritual gifts in order to make himself powerful – the way Peter deals with this scenario instructs us clearly about what the truth of this is & how we should also respond in our own hearts…

      As we are beginning to see – a recognised – “seer” has a lot of authority to say whatever they think… the elijah list is full of this stuff… the whole direction of the NAR movement rolls on the prophetic… it is no wonder then that everyone in the mix wants to be seen operating in this gift… I too- got sucked into this thinking & it is a way of life – we were encouraged to operate in “the prophetic” all of the time — speaking into other peoples lives often on intimate things – telling them God had spoken… trouble is this was never about Jesus – it was all about them – their specific situation & their need for emotional & physical healing… the more a person speaks prophetically the easier it gets & oftentimes with great success/accuracy… but see what happens — its all about ME & my powerful spiritual Gift…

      in honesty since I came out… I have led more people to repentance & faith in christ – genuinely – authentically – than I ever did by prophisying their need over them… see people respond from the wrong place – they are ultimately greedy & selfish & full of pride – loving to hear about themselves & how they can FEEL better.. this whole thing – plays right into that carnal base desire…

      teachers & leaders are at liberty to say whatever they think aside from the scriptures.. qualification coming from a twisting of scripture to fit their “word” & not the other way around.. to challenge them or question then becomes a case of pitting one self against the “holy spirit”

      The word is our final authority… no one is above it – even the Holy Spirit is not above it..

      • Ok 2nd Reply about “rapture less”

        I had a quick squizz through the introductions page & the statement of belief… this guy believes that there will be NO RAPTURE of the church of true believers in Christ Jesus..

        he believes that most of the context of revelation pertains to the destruction of Jerusalem which already occurred in the 1st century..

        now whilst I believe that the rapture will occur — it most certainly will not be secret — Jesus will appear & we will meet him in the air. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NIV). the word “Rapture” means great delight – so there will be a meeting in the air between Jesus & the Church which will be of great delight…

        telling tho is the statement of belief here are just 3 points which say

        I believe that the Kingdom of God arrived with Jesus’ first coming and will fill the whole earth in preparation for His final return.- this is LATTER RAIN theology..

        I believe that antichrist is a first century name for “Gnosticism” and perhaps other false teachings. I do not believe that the Bible prophesies a future one-world ruler.

        – wow – because the prince of the power of the air – the Devil has his heart set on exactly that — we see it coming more & more into fruition – daily – this is what the whole NWO – secret societies of freemasonry – Skull & bones – Illuminati etc etc is all about they are pulling it together – & this is infiltrating the church.. just a bit of research & joining up the dots reveals this… It is the Devil’s agenda & the bible DOES speak of this…

        I believe that the “Beast” of Revelation is a reference either to the person of Nero or the Roman Empire (depending on the context).

        – spiritually this may be correct in that the spirit of a “nero type” & the system of a empirical roman dictatorship system is the case – same spirit – passed through the ages right to our day & re- manifested ( Nazism & Fascim & terrorism would sit in & under the same antichrist systemic spirit) but none the less, let us make no mistake — these things are not “THE PAST”

        the bible simply does NOT teach these things that this guy is propelling… he goes on to say he has had these things revealed to him by the Holy Spirit & make s an issue that “the doctrine of the “rapture” as we understand it was not preached by the church until the 1800’s — which of course means that he is a “prophetic seer”

        so — if the Holy Spirit has revealed these things they will line up perfectly with the word of GOD…. remember that we need to read the word at face value- not seek out secret or hidden meanings – doing this twists scripture & makes it say things that it does not….. there are no secret meanings or hidden implications in the word — its all there – its all complete…

        finally- whilst not compulsory – there is still an option to donate financially – if you so choose… so whilst not making money an issue & the book is offered free – he would still like your money….

  14. Question is about CFTN or Church for the Nations.

    …They seem to be teaching the same thing as Bethel, Are they asociated with any church in the UK?..They talk about covering Churches there, and sending ministries to the UK?…My wife and I moved to Arizona to buy a Home and attend CFTN, were fleeced of our money by a real estate person who is involved with them and there side kick XP Ministries, there about page changed since we have been here to nothing more than World Domination through “Seven Mountain Principles”…In which Maiden sells his books on the subject every service, .We are at a loss for words as to how we have been deceived …We both grew up in the Church after getting married 30 yrs ago and boy has it changed.

    • Yep.. Cftn – Senior Leader Dr Michael Maiden I believe they are teaching exactly the same as Bethel..

      If you review the “River” page.. on this blog it details out what I believe is an interconnectedness between all of these people & ministries.. Bethel is merely a “shop front” for NAR – dominionist – latter rain teachings – a slick business operative selling “the product” worldwide

      Cftn also have their own School of Supernatural ministry..

      in terms of association they prefer the terms “partnering” or aligning.. a quick bit of online research brings up the vision of Dr Michael Maiden wanting to influence or partner with 10,000 churches- covering them for church planting missions etc…

      any church that goes down the route of promoting investment schemes (Ponzi style) for its members is in my opinion operating in error… this is NOT what the church is for – we have a risen saviour to promote & that is all – everything else is built on that foundation… It troubles me that Michael Maiden appears to be bothered by the fact that the church was fleeced & he was conned but not bothered that the church under his leadership should never have got involved in the first place…. he seems to avoid the reality of that responsibility.

      Patricia King of XP (extreme prophetic) is one of the NAR crowd in her own right – so it is of no surprise to me that she is right there in the middle of Cftn

      Dr Michael Maiden was also on stage present at Lakeland during Todd Bentley’s commissioning…

      Dr Michael Maiden has written & taught extensively on the 7 Mountains Mandate & it would appear that he has been in the UK within the last 2 weeks teaching at a 7 mountains conference in Reading UK

      it would seem Cftn – Dr Michael Maiden is into prosperity teaching to the core- WOF doctrine- & 7 Mountains principles – Latter Rain Dominionism

      DECEPTION!

      • Deeper than that, The following is posted on Church Of The Rock website where He is now there President…..their about page sun=ms it up to spread worldwide, “This is a Worldwide epidemic”

        Moving Forward
        Our mission here at Church for the Nations (CFTN) and Church on the Rock International (COTRI) is EMPOWERING LEADERS TO TRANSFORM NATIONS. God has birthed this movement and He is ready to move it to the next level of His purpose and plan. As the newly elected leader of COTRI, I believe that my task for this great movement is to allow God to FINISH WHAT HE’S BEGUN. COTRI was birthed as a PRAYER and CHURCH PLANTING movement and has been under the tremendous leadership of Dr. Lawrence Kennedy for over 20 years.In the next few years, CFTN and COTRI plan on working with apostolic leaders to PLANT THOUSANDS OF CHURCHES IN AMERICA AND AROUND THE WORLD because it’s in our spiritual DNA to do so! We are inviting you and your leadership team to participate in our Moving Forward Conference where we will be sharing our vision, renewing relationships, as well as offering a broad range of workshops and powerful services.
        Man, am I excited for what God’s about to do!
        God bless you!
        In His great love,
        Dr. Michael MaidenPresident of Church on the Rock InternationalLead Pastor at Church for the Nations
        Moving Forward
        Free Conference!

    • Hi DennisGman, take note of vs. 3 & 9-10 especially. We should not be surprised at the state of the Church in light of this. We live in a time when churches who truly follow the Truth of the Word are in the minority.

      Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
      5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

    • Yes, Pastor Yinka Oyekan of Reading Community Church, and member of the ‘Apostolic team’ overseeing the Barnabus group of Churches has agreed to become the Director of COTRI Europe (church on the rock international, Maiden is the prime leader of this organisation originally founded by Larry Lea). Michael Maiden has twice spoken at Barnabus conventions, and they hope to entertain Patricia King next year. Reading Community Church has established a Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry, which charges a thousand pounds for the course, we believe.
      Sadly other churches in Reading are being sucked in. The blatant heresy and manipulation contained in Bethel books, like ‘Spiritual Java’ are so cleverly concealed that even the best of pastors fail to notice.
      What we find most interesting is why Michael Maiden needs to poach someone else’s prophecy, change it and write a book on it that contradicts the book written by the original recipient of the prophecy, if he is the great prophet that he claims to be. It was Loren Cunningham who received the original Word, along with Bill Bright and Francis Schaeffer, but not in its current Dominionist form. It’s purpose was practical direction. Loren Cunningham’s own book, ‘The Book that Transforms Nations is excellent, unlike Maiden’s book which is a curious mixture of sound teaching Bibical manipulation and false promises – a similar cocktail of truth and deception as found in Bill Johnson’s compilations.

      • Hehehe from the same town Im not shocked or too bothered, They have rejected Jesus first before this delusion

    • Well its been almost 4 yrs since our eyes were open to these guys being deceived hasn’t been fun…It did change our lives… my wife and I quit church all together, now stream church to our home in AZ City Arizona… No friends , we lost every friend in Arizona. We moved here to start another chapter of our life after 30 yrs of marriage. We are selling our home and moving back to the NW, at least we both have Family there . We heard for yrs that the Church is our NEW FAMILY…Yeah right!! It has been the family from Hell. At least our eyes are open to truth. My Wife Beverly Guilliams (on Facebook or Splash of Color by Bev, in case your wondering) have appreciated the sound advice and prayers here …Thank You. I had to change my Facebook login name and block more than 200 people ,(https://www.facebook.com/jimmymackiehere) just so I stay sane in this insane world of the NWO Church they are building & dragging so many denominations with them…They are ushering in (according to them) the 2nd Pentecost by the year 2033.

      • Hi Dennis.. yes. Things haven’t got better…

        Please do share any info you may have on this 2nd penetecost by 2033 agenda… As I’m now more certain than ever that

        a). The charismatic movement was partially started & funded by the so called illuminati through Calvary chapel.. with an agenda to unite ultimately with the Roman Catholic church & to saturate the Christian mainstream with Rock music both for commercial & satanic purposes..

        b) what we are seeing is a complete hijack of Christianity to support control of “the church” by Satanists in high hidden places. Bringing together a new world order..

  15. Q Has Mystic John Crowder been to Bethel? another great question placed through the search engine

    A not sure: but… certainly BJ considers him a friend… & Beni Johnson with Lilly Crowder JC’s wife have ministered together at a Conference a couple of years ago called “girls just wanna have fun” this was about having fun with the Holy Spirit – in the supernatural realm of creating miracles signs & wonders

    so the poser is… if BJ had any issues with JC ministry or the teachings of the “New Mystics” that Crowder heads up – well he wouldn’t exactly support his own wife hosting- leading & ministering alongside

    additionally – Crowder’s new mystics run Glory schools – for which they have invited BSSM students to attend at a discounted rate…

    so there is a co working & cross pollination here….

    make no mistake: crowder is into levitation- bi Location – making one self invisible – & of course the “spiritual drunkenness” mystic is actually to mild a word to describe this stuff..

    NONE OF IT IS OF GOD — STAY AWAY!

  16. Hi, I have a question regarding the presence of God and intimacy with God, as this is something talked about a lot in the bethel world.

    While I don’t understand what is going on in these churches which talk about the presence of God, what is the biblical meaning?

    Martyn Lloyd-Jones said this:

    ‘ You can have an outward prosperity and affluence.The church may be seen to be doing remarkably well. Good finances, good figures, successes, conversions, enemies defeated, everything going well. And the newspapers report it. The Christian newspapers report it. Everything seems to be marvellous, but the appalling (?) question I ask is this ‘Is God in the midst? Is He really amongst us? Are we aware as we really should be of His glorious presence?’

    How does what he is saying relate to the bethel churches and/or even non bethel churches?

    • Hi Victoria,

      great question I have blogged a little about this before:

      these are my comments –

      The Presence Of God
      Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you. James 4 v 7-10 (NASB)

      In the authentic Presence of God there is a demonstration of

      submission to God
      Humility
      Repentance from Sin
      Resistance of all Evil
      Drawing near to God
      being single minded ( without doubt) & full of faith for redemption
      purity of heart – actions/intent are clean
      having an attitude – opposite to that of a”party lifestyle” (fruit of the spirit)

      so the question I guess we are really asking is How do we know that it is the presence of God that we are in.?

      the passage in James as above.. the drawing near- speaks to my mind of a closeness, some would say an intimacy although I dont like that word, as it has sexualised overtones – which is not how we are to approach Jesus neither does he approach us in that manner…

      so how are we going to draw close to God…? well it is absolutely impossible for us to do so because of our sin… so the only way that has been provided for us is through the saving Grace of Christ who has redeemed us from sin by & through his sacrifice on the cross… HE IS THE ONLY WAY TO GET CLOSE TO THE FATHER... the above passage in James asks us to clean our hands & purify our hearts – “repent from & stop doing & being in sin” then we can rejoice in the presence of the father…

      in he church, the presence of God in the midst is not measured by success we would deem as success, large congregations- awesome praise & worship & much money given in tithes & offerings etc etc… it is to do with holiness…

      in any church, if the “system” of doing church includes oppression, domination, control – if there is even a little dishonesty, over exaggeration of signs & wonders & miracles…. false testimony that leads people astray.. If the Gospel is not being preached… if there is no clarification that “Jesus is the only way to the father” all of these things lead to a deceptive spirit in the mix… a church can have all the good times it wants, all the partying & so called miracles… believing that it is God’s powerful presence when the reality is that is actually a strong delusion..

      church we soooo desperately need to know & discern the difference…

  17. from time to time we get a few questions or searches placed about “how to operate in the supernatural”

    yesterday: this came in

    enlighten me on operating in the supernatural by the power of faith

    this raises up several pointers that need a bit of addressing- for the OP… thank you for placing this — lets unpack it a bit not to criticise where you are coming from but to help sort out some thoughts…

    * as Christians we don’t need to “operate” in anything… we are saved by Jesus through grace — we have a relationship with the Holy Spirit who HE (Jesus) has sent as our comforter – the Holy Spirit’s number 1 Job is to reveal & glorify the risen christ to all of our hearts —

    * the supernatural… & by this I know that in the teachings of the “river” we mean this to be in the spiritual or heavenly realm – the thing is the bible makes it super clear that there is no such thing as ” the spiritual realm” there is the domain of darkness & the kingdom of light.. colossians 1 v 13… they are not interchangeable

    the word “supernatural” is not a biblical word – occurring only in paraphrased narratives of the bible such as ” the message” & this word as all will know is used in a worldly context to describe all manner or spooky, paranormal, occultic ideas & practices which we in the church – understand from scripture are forbidden for the one who follows Jesus…

    * the “power of faith” well faith is belief it is not a force that we can use ( for good or bad) it is God & God alone who decides who should be healed & how for example; or who & when people should be delivered out of terrible situations.. of course it is noble – very noble of us to WANT these things on the behalf of others … but , we have no ability to change anyone’s circumstances… God does it & this may be a shocker– he sometimes allows undesirable situations in people’s lives to help them live & grow in him – I would not want to get in the way of the process of that outworking in their life… longterm – in terms of “bigger picture” legacy – we can have no idea how God is using situations for his ultimate glory.. difficult as it is for us to watch a person in pain.. our prayer for them should not be from a motivation that it is difficult for us to handle observing their circumstances & of course we should pray – but it is God who is both in charge & in control & God who heals, delivers & saves — not anything we could do

    Hebrews 11 v 1
    Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

    this whole chapter talks about what faith really is & finishes by saying

    v 39-40
    And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    see that the chapter talks about those in Old covenant under the law before Jesus came – accepted the promise of him by faith.. but they did not live to see the day… that did not diminish their faith… & it states that WE are made perfect in our acceptance of Jesus – we have to realise that we CANNOT stand before the father unless we are perfect.. & the only way to be able to do so is through Christ who offers us salvation from our sin through his death.. no touch or experience or healing or any other method, idea or “way” is ever going to be satisfactory to make us perfected enough to stand before God… Jesus is the Only way – he said so.. ” Faith ” – is our belief that this is so…

    * supernatural signs, wonders & miracles – always follow & confirm the Gospel of Christ Crucified… seems to me that if the message of who Jesus is – what he came to do – the report of his success in overcoming sin & death & a response encouraged from the hearers of that word – is not being explained in any measure whatsoever.. Then I am at liberty to assume any observable “supernatural” evidences of Power do not represent or originate with the Holy Spirit…

    • The whole concept of ‘believing in the supernatural’ is obviously dangerous. Just believing in the supernatural opens us to other spiritual influences. Christians believe in the power of the Resurrection as Paul expressed in Phil 3:10. The more we die to ourselves, reckon ourselves dead to sin but alive to Christ, the more we can experience resurrection power in our lives. Bill Johnson speaks of ‘colouring outside the lines’ and ‘going off the map’ The map and the lines are given to us so that we shall not get lost. Bill Johnson calls those who take theological guidelines seriously, ‘wordies.’ In our own house church we have taken to reading the creed together on occasions as a result. Bill Johnson’s great revelation is that Jesus was only a man until His baptism when the Holy Spirit came upon Him. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, eternally three in One. If Jesus was ever without the Holy Spirit, He was not God.
      Bill Johnson’s fatal error proves that if you go off the map, you will get lost, and lead others astray.
      The faith that we need is the kind of faith that Abraham had, in Hebrew ’emunah’, it means enduring faith, a faith that does not go by physical sight or feelings, but is rooted in the power of God and His faithfulness to His promises, Romans 4:19-21

  18. Ok so the question you are asking is: should we address the devil…?

    Short answer NO

    I’ll go on to describe the different perspectives on this with some biblical clarification as there is some biblical justification in addressing the devil in order to cast out Demons.. but as is common in the word of faith/River confusion abounds on this issue..

    first off, in my experiences – we had many prayer meetings where many individuals prayed prayers first addressing God then switching to address the devil in the manner you describe & back to God again – which is what I think you are getting at in this question… I don’t believe this is right at all firstly because the Kingdom of God (light) & the kingdom of darkness are not interchangeable… secondly to the untrained in the word of God – this practice communicates to everyone present that Jesus & the Devil are equal opposites… like Hans solo v Darth vader with light sabre’s drawn… – which people end up believing… let me just say this is completely erroneous thinking.. the Bible makes it totally clear that Jesus is completely sovereign – above everything.. & the devil is completely defeated… they are NOT equal in any capacity…

    now there is a case for addressing the devil.. in the circumstances of casting out demons from individuals… Jesus did this himself in mark 5 he address the demons directly in a man & they leave him & enter a herd of pigs & again in Matthew 8 & in Matthew 10 he instructs the disciples to drive out demons themselves… in other words he gives them power & permission to do this.. so in the context of personal deliverance directly addressing the devil or demons to leave the afflicted person is completely biblically appropriate.. but this should always be done with intense discernment care & love… I would suggest this type of ministry is not carried out by anyone who is not completely grounded in the word.. ( there are some other parameters too which are not part of this discussion)

    having said that- we have the whole arena of spiritual warfare.. for the best part of 25 years now there is a teaching in charismatic circles which promote the idea that evil spirits are territorial & can reside in certain locations & that it is our responsibility as Christians to research this out & pray them away… this whole thing is known as spiritual mapping – claiming the ground... it was Peter C Wagner (mostly) who popularised this teaching from the late 1980’s onwards… do we find the disciples doing all this- did Jesus model it? are we instructed to carry this out in scripture? NO we are not – therefore – biblically this whole method of spiritual domination holds no weight & is Invalidated as a “Christian” activity… don’t participate in or waste any of your precious time with it – go preach the Gospel properly like Jesus told us too.

    Compounding the Confusion still further, is Bethel/BJ teaching that “anything Jesus did whilst he walked on earth – as a man – is also possible & permissible for us to also do” of course this includes taking authority over the demonic… now we have authority over the demonic in the context of personal deliverance as described above- however. the bethel position leads to spiritually immature & irresponsible people deciding that the demonic is generally present in meetings & the like & coming against them in the way you have described & I experienced… in the end, if a crisis moment can be created in this manner, what happens is that people with superficial boldness rush in to resolve this… in doing it they give satan power – & attention & then by declaring or deeming it overcome – they are in reality announcing their own spiritual power… in the end it is all about self Not about Jesus…

    simply the word of God says: submit to God; resist the devil & he will flee from you. James 4 v7

  19. My friends all go to what is seemingly becoming a “Bethelized” church and i hear a lot of the teachers often times speaking directly to Satan. They’ll say things like “Leave this place” or “You are not welcome here” and they’ll just sort of talk to him. My question is if that’s something we should be doing? Even if it is to tell him to leave, I’ve heard from people that we are to have nothing to do with evil spirits and let God handle them yet these people are not doing that. I’m just confused and maybe I’m being overly cautious but i just feel weird about this.

  20. what is Revival Alliance?

    in their own words:

    Revival Alliance is a group of six ministries, committed to friendship and unity. All of these men and women, and the Christian ministries they represent, are passionate about loving Jesus, declaring the Father’s Love, embracing God’s manifest presence, and releasing anointing for signs and wonders and evangelism to the world. Together, let’s receive impartation and anointing from these amazing men and women of God!

    the six ministries are

    * John & Carol Arnott – Spread the Fire
    * Bill & Beni Johnson – Bethel Church
    * Randy & Deanne Clark – Global Awakeing
    * Georgian & Winnie Banov – Global celebration
    * Che & Sue Ahn – Harvest Rock Church
    * Rolland & Heidi Baker – Iris ministries

    & according to their info, it seems Martin smith – ex of Delirious – leads the worship at their events

    this is the crew of the big names in this movement… holding regular conferences- at least annually in the UK – to which any who wish to partner with the objectives of embracing the manifest presence of God & releasing anointing for Signs & Wonders are invited to attend..

    remember that it was to this group that Todd Bentley made himself accountable at his commissioning at Lakeland 2008 – for me, that in itself raises enough questions about integrity…

    • Thanks to Saved By grace who found this article — & apologies I have not put it up before now – it got lost in my inbox…. but here it is Revival Alliance & the agenda through the 7 Mountains Mandate to run for Governmental positions (USA) make no mistake — the NAR movement wants to be influential at the very highest levels in society not to serve but to “impart” their version of the Kingdom of God through dominionism… & if USA why not here? will be the cry & the call of some of the Top NAR leaders here in the UK.. please read & pray!

      http://www.talk2action.org/story/2013/3/18/223235/954

  21. Q: Is Treasure Hunting Biblical ?

    A: NO ( & I have been involved with this activity so I know first hand what goes on)

    context: to test if any activity is biblical we need to be able to demonstrate & test the precedence – idea & context of it (or against it) contained within the scriptures…

    so first off what is treasure hunting? it is an activity a method of legitimizing the approach of random people in the street…in order to present to them “something” of the goodness of God. with the implied intention that they may respond to that occurrence positively in some life changing manner…

    what happens is the whole team meet to pray & seek God for “clues” about the people they may meet on the street… so on the paper checklist – each person writes down what they feel God tells them about the people they are about to meet – the checklist may look something like this

    lady – walking dog – spotty umbrella- outside library –

    or

    man. – elderly – big overcoat – distressed about son

    once enough clues have been ascertained through prayer & written on the check list – the team go out maybe in pairs or 3s looking for those people who fit the given criteria…

    the person is approached on the basis of being a clue in an alternative treasure hunt & told that they may fit one of the clues.. & would it be Ok to pray with the person..(sometimes the person is not asked for permission to pray over him/her- with the team member eager to say I feel God is saying X to you) the person is then prayed for for healing & or prophesied over.. & asked to give a response about how they feel..

    in other words the team are looking here for confirmation that everything they heard from the Holy Spirit is indeed correct.

    the team meet up after a set time – say one hour – to de brief & share stories basically of how the clues were accurate & the healings or prophetic words they were able to “impart” during the treasure hunt…

    so our original question: is treasure hunting biblical?

    where then do we see this modelled in the lives of the disciples or NT believers… the answer is that we dont..

    the main points about treasure hunting are this:

    * approaching people in this manner has been turned into a game or a bit of fun – it does not matter to the exersise that the team member may be insensitive or suggest things that may be inaccurate – the person being approached is the very least important person in the mix as the team member will be under the instruction that “he/she is learning” to be activated in the “prophetic”

    * The Gospel (of Christ crucified) is actively not preached… biblically we are commanded to by Jesus: Then He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. Mark 16v 15 HCSB
    some teams are deliberately told not to”preach” but to demonstrate God through the administration of the prophetic/Signs & wonders

    * Treasure Hunting is a method, a formula, with the objective being that the subject receives an experience of God – once that experience is finished, as their is no natural relationship whatsoever between the team & the person… the random person is likely to feel either a) “is that it then” – this creation of a mindset effectively innoculates people against hearing the truth of christ.. & b) completely freaked out with no reference point to be able to sort out what has just happened – particularly if they have been prophesied over – & that “word” has some accuracies…

    is any of this responsible before a Holy God – is it a demonstration of proper compassion – a proper representation of HIS nature & character- does it potentially leave people with more issues than they had before -? ultimately does it Glorify Jesus & proovebly lead people to a place of repentance & then salvation with a clear given understanding of what the true Gospel is?

    what do you think??

    • Jesus gave us a Mandate to be set apart from the world, so when we are like the world , How will anyone know we are any different than the New Age Groups like These from WA State in the US….They have also expanded into the UK…They have the same “walk and talk” that Bethel has, it is amazing talking to these guys , “they sound like a Christian would sound like with there smile and radiance of peace about them”…..makes me sick, but I have something called discernment.
      http://www.ramtha.com/content/techniques.aspx

      • yes you do have discernment DennisGman… if you are able to tell that we are to be set apart from the world.. this totally means being different in thought word & deed – because the things of God the word of God teaches runs counter to the world’s systems – Jesus said that the world would hate us because it hated him first… so this should be our expectation… being in the world & not of it gives the believer the sense of being a salmon swimming upstream…

        I find it amazing that the New age website you link too uses exactly the same types of language & conceptual ideology that we are now seeing in the church… this is moving more & more “mainstream”. being salt & Light means we remain in the place where we ensure Christ is central & do not shift positions…. you go for it my friend!

  22. the word “Anointed” means the one who is chosen…. this is indicated by the rubbing on or marking with a smear of oil (usually quite ceremonially)

    so Jesus was most definitely anointed, chosen by God to be the one who would come as a perfect God-Man sacrifice laying down his life as a sacrifice to redeem us from sin… the result of that means that we can now approach the father clean from sin – the father cannot look at sin so this separated us from him.. but through Jesus – who has shed his blood for us, the way – the door is open for us to connect with Father God..if we repent of our sin, die to ourselves & accept Jesus as our saviour on this basis…

    now there is much made of the word “anointing” or “being anointed” it is bandied about alot… in context of how it is being used & applied in our charismatic circles – it almost means that there is somehow extra significance applied to that person or ministry or song or teaching deemed to have the anointing or an anointing etc that helps us connect with the father’s heart…(or get into his presence) whilst I get this – & some of teachings/songs etc are very powerfully used by God to communicate his message of love to us & for us…more so with some than others & at various times too.. & that this is quite valid & helpful to us. -the question needs to be asked what makes it “anointed” who decides – or is it just a feeling….? see when we begin to unpack it, the whole premise of “its anointed” gets shaky very quick

    SO We have to be very careful to guard our hearts & minds form adopting a magical- mystical thought process about these things. – what we dont want to be doing is giving power to a song because of its chord progression or a teaching because of an excellent communicator who knows how to deliver a good line… Remember that the bible says: in John 14 v 6

    Jesus said to him “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

    placing extra weight onto anything EXCEPT Christ crucified to get us into a place of connecting with the father is a deception… it is not down to a song – or a man – or a teaching.

    thanks for this question as it has challenged me to be a l lot more careful in how I use this word in proper context..

  23. THE ANOINTING

    hi, I have a question for you…
    Jesus Christ is described as the Anointed. What does this mean, biblically? I’m asking because I have heard so much in the Christian world about ‘anointings’…eg. ‘he is a highly anointed evangelist’, a ‘highly anointed song’ etc. Am not sure how comfortable I feel about this at all and I don’t understand what people mean when they say this?

  24. Hi, just found this: http://www.anamcharabooks.com/title.php?id=34
    It is a book written by a guy in the UK: “The Mystic Path of Meditation: Beginning a Christ-Centered Journey” by David Cole
    My question?
    Well……it’s obvious: Mystic path of meditation??
    What on earth??
    I’ll go do some more research on book&author and if you know anything about either of them, please enlighten me.

  25. Generational curses are a teaching derived from OT texts:

    Numbers 14 v 18-19
    ‘The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation.’ Please pardon the iniquity of this people, according to the greatness of your steadfast love, just as you have forgiven this people, from Egypt until now.” ESV

    this same scripture correlates with
    Exodus 20 v 3-6 – Exodus 34 v 6- 7 & Deuteronomy 5 v 9.

    In our understanding of Jesus sacrifice on the cross we need to know that all sins & subsequent sacrifices of atonement that were needed in the OT under the law have been written over by the New covenant that the blood of Jesus provides for us

    John 1 v 29 says The next day he (John) saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (ESV)

    John the Baptist – understood this as a promise which was about to be fulfilled in his generation …

    Now, the scripture says HE (Jesus) takes away the SIN of the world… not some sins – ALL SIN… the context of generational curses therefore can only apply in the time of the OT…

    many times – Paul teaches this whole concept of Jesus bearing our sin – becoming a curse for us throughout his teaching of the early church

    Galatians 3 v 13 – 14

    Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

    we see then that the only means by which the Guilty are cleared is through Jesus… Numbers 14 of course seems contrary – to the Galatians passage but makes perfect sense when we review it in the light of Jesus becoming a curse- he really really did pay the price for us.. Jesus became a curse – to redeem us out of any curse that may be upon us..

    therefore, this teaching about generational curses is NULL & VOID… for the believer & follower of Jesus

    controversially, there are many Christians who would disagree with that – basing their point of view on facts such as genetic diseases passed from the generations & inheritance of lifestyles such as “he came from a long line of Alcoholics”…

    in ministry situations where this view is held people are encouraged to seek deliverance by the “cutting off” from the unGodly generations.. this is a symbolic type of prayer which lets the believer know that this has been done… It certainly has- but not by an act of symbolism but by & through a precious saviour- reedemer’s sacrifice -which cuts us off from sin – sin separates us from God.

    I used to feel this type of ministry was appropriate but in the light of these scriptures I know this is not truth..

    An individual – accepts or rejects Christ’s offer of salvation by themselves – similarly the lifestyle choices individuals make are their own responsibility… deliverance thereafter is available to them through their acceptance of Christ, their repentance & denouncement of sin & turning towards him in the understanding & heart.

    my feeling is that this whole teaching on generational curses is yet another “ministry tool” that seeks to identify an “inactive” type of bondage to a spiritual root – (which the individual is not be responsible for if it was his GGgranfather who sinned…) God will hold each man/woman accountable under Christ shed blood..as an individual – we cannot be responsible for anothers sin (or conviction of sin) this is the work of the Holy Spirit to bring people in to account & conviction He is the one operative in this new convenant as Jesus promised.

    Bringing this teaching/ministry to the table creates more bondage & oppression whilst pretending that it is indeed freedom… such deception – an individual could potentially explore the lifestyle sins of 30 people. (if we go back to the 4th generation) in order to be clean & guilt free- an inexhaustable task… which is both destractive & destructive… ministry could go on for an awfully long time – years maybe whilst this is all trawled through & all of it is completely unnecessary.

    John 1 v 14 -15

    Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

    this is the simplicity of it – we in our 21st century minds think that getting to grips with biblical truths must be far more complicated than it actually is…

    additionally, Generational Curses teaching for the immature – provides the perfect cop out of “its not my fault” if they so choose & many do – there may be no compunction to work out ones own issue with responsibility – excusing it away… “I was born that way” (- angry or violent or shy any manner of things etc)

    finally – do we see such a practice in the NT among the believers ? – no we do not – infact they were warned away from debating the merits of endless genealogy- the context is different but the outcomes – of being able to proove this & that about ones standing in God through the family is implied. Truly ridiculous – when we truly know that we are saved by grace & Jesus is the ultimate deliverer.

    for further reading: http://closingstages.net/2012/07/31/victims-of-johnsons-sozo-ministry-speak-out/

    read through the whole article as it goes onto discuss Generational Curses & how this applies to Sozo ministry

    • Even in the Old Testament, the teaching regarding the inheritance of God’s judgement to the third and fourth generation was superseded. Consider Ezekiel Chapter 18 which says: “The word of the Lord came to me: ‘What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel: “The fathers eat sour grapes and the children’s teeth are set on edge.”?’ ‘As surely as I live’, says the sovereign Lord, ‘you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son – both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.” God goes on to give examples and says (in verse 20), “the soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.” That’s pretty clear, I think.

      Marolin

      • yes & the thing is that Jesus came to do away with sin – his sacrifice was perfect – his grace sufficient.. the teaching that implies directly or indirectly that generational curses are operative under the new covenant ( now Jesus has died in our place) undermines the validity of the cross of Christ… this is why its so so important to understand the basic roots of these teachings & see them for what they are ERROR!

  26. Q: What Is Bethel’s Worst Teaching?

    this question was posted through the search facility on this blog & is exactly the kind of question we can answer publicly … please please do post questions… there is no question too obvious that I would not consider worthy of a proper answer) as it helps others with the same question(s) sort out what they believe as truth from error…

    A: 1) Any teaching that undermines the personhood of Jesus Christ who came in the flesh as Fully God & Fully man when he walked among us

    2) Any teaching that promotes a “Gospel” (or the good news of Jesus) that is different from that which was taught by the early Church.. if the teaching leans in any way to suggest that Jesus sacrifice on the cross was not enough to purchase our salvation by grace – then this teaching is straying from the narrow path of Truth…

    – if the teaching indicates that other “rights” were purchased for us at the cross – if the teaching suggests that the sacrifice & victory of Christ over sin & death was not completed until he had visited hell during the period between death & resurrection – if there is NO teaching whatsoever about Christ Crucified within a reasonable time frame – (i.e it is not taught or referred to by leaders often & therefore there is no response from new “christians” based on their understanding of Christ crucified) these are erroneous positions & in actual fact disqualify a group of people from being regarded as the “true Church”

    having a faulty understanding about who Jesus is & what he came to do & subsequently achieved in fullness.. leads on to all manner of other errors….

    so the kick back question is of course: what is Bethel teaching – directly about the personhood of Jesus & what would their understanding be of “the Gospel” ?? & where would you personally stand on this?

  27. Q: what is Gold Dust & what does it do? A:

    small flakes of a gold substance falling on people during worship services. It does nothing except produce the response of “wow or Awesome” from the participants/observers in the meeting.

    context- if this was truly Gold from heaven – it would actually BE Gold. there is a reluctance to get the stuff tested – at Bethel people are discouraged from collecting it (they have “bouncers” on stage to keep people off)

    There have been accusations of fakery that Gold glitter has been placed in air conditioning vents in the ceiling – (gems & feathers also)

    the whole Gold dust Phenomena started with a lady called Ruth Heflin from around the time of the Toronto Blessing c1994 onwards… (before this time it was unheard of)

    It is referenced in the new age along with angel orbs & connecting with auras & accessing the spiritual realm as a method of communication by angels.

    It is not referenced in the bible. as a specific sign & wonder

  28. Q: Are Fire Tunnels Biblical ? A: No

    context:
    1) do we see this practice of impartation of the Holy Spirit- administration of an anointing or gifting a healing or deliverance or anything else practiced through fire tunnelling (or other Methods) in & by & for the NT believers?

    2) do we see any practice of praying for people in any context in order for them to demonstrate an out ward “manifestation” of the spirit — being role modelled in the early church

    3) are individuals having life changing experiences through going through such a fire tunnel. how is it effective – what is it effective for? – so what is actually the point other than a feel good factor

  29. Is SOZO dangerous?

    this is a question posted through the “search” several times now…

    I think the bigger question to ask is this “Is there any method or practice that is considered as “spiritual” harmful when it is not rooted firmly in God’s word….?”

    the answer is YES!

    on the basis that SOZO is a made up ministry – with elements drawn from various different sources & originators – melded into one formula for deliverance & healing of emotions. the root of it is Man & not God…

    on the basis that – the implication is that before SOZO existed (or without participating)- the christian could not & cannot really get free/whole/released without it.

    on the basis that there is a direct correlation between the concepts of New Age practice & philosphy such as Law of Attraction – Guided visualisation & other secular techniques that are incorporated into SOZO & Shabar

    I believe, Sozo is dangerous in this context – simply because it is NOT rooted in God & incorporates doctrines of demons.

    visit the SOZO page for more info

  30. SBG said:

    Shifting atmospheres? Papa God? Love and fire encounters? What is this all about??

    I’ll try & answer: – shifting atmospheres: this is all about discerning the spiritual forces around us and how to have authority over them. The ability to sense the spiritual atmosphere, and the ability to bring it into alignment with God’s Kingdom. Positioning to walk victoriously in any atmosphere we encounter. It seems to be one step on from Prayer mapping – it clearly incorporates the view that the power of the spirit of the air is territorial & resides over locations..

    this root of this teaching originates with Peter C Wagner from at least the early 90’s & is underpinned by Dominionism…

    Papa God – Bethellites have ( as they would describe) such a one on one with God – that we often hear them refer to the Father as Papa or Daddy God…. this is lovely as it describes a level of intimacy BUT at the same time the continual use of these terms also demonstrates a lack of ability in understanding that God is Holy & needs to be addressed with Awe & Reverence.. sometimes when we humans use terms, in addressing or considering anyone or thing it shapes our understanding – gets in our heads in a particular way – the balance here is fear of the Lord or Sugar Daddy who will give us everything we ask…

    love & fire encounters: literally when a person is prayed for & honoured – the desire is to demonstrate the love of the father – often through facilitating a healing or, if they manifest in any of the ways we describe on other pages of this blog – this is said to be a power or “fire” encounter.. Biblically – anytime FIRE is mentioned it is to do with God’s judgement… As Bethel tend not to do any thing that is perspectively “Negative” it is unlikely this has anything to do with conviction of sin & repentance.. The emphasis being – that we can LOVE people into the Kingdom…

    please expand anyone – if you know more from a personal experience…

  31. This is from a student at London School of Supernatural Ministry LSSM:

    “God Is So Exciting
    Posted by…. on 5th February 2013 in News

    Wow, I can’t believe another week has gone by. I’m still taking in last week and we are in the middle of this week! I seem to be riding a wave in the Spirit which is carrying me and the rest of ILSSM into new levels of faith and heavenly activity. I met some new friends who have taught me so much this week. I think I got a years teaching in a week! I learned how to shift atmosphere’s and have been practising ever since. The worship temperature has been raised too as we shift things as a team in the worship times and release the presence of God with new understanding and authority, wooooooo. We went for breakthrough with addictions, love encounters with Papa God and new vision with the Prophetic School on Wednesday evening. On Saturday we had love and fire encounters with the Lord as he drew the Evening School students into his heart and justified them. The atmosphere was different as we went out on the streets of Westminster too and some of the people we approached received prophetic words, prayer and love. God is so good. I wonder what he will do this week? I can’t wait.”

    Shifting atmospheres? Papa God? Love and fire encounters?
    What is this all about??

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